KF: As members of the church are we all seeking the blessing of "another comforter" or the "second comfortor" ? and is it achievable for all who are worthy or is it something that only some are able to achieve? Like a pre destined spiritual gift of you are worthy?

This is what I was reading about it http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/JesusChrist,Second_Comforter

And is it something that happens in this life?

TB: In short - it is a reward for exact obedience and devotion to the Lord - an individual doable reward

MSB: I disagree that it's exact obedience, at least obedience in the way we typically think of it. The Book of Mormon has many examples of sinful people, people who were murderers minutes before, meeting the Lord and being redeemed by him.

TB: that's not what the 2nd comforter is...

MSB: I'd like to hear your opinion on why that is so, if you care to elaborate.

TB: Read the link above - it's not my opinion, it's chruch doctrine - if, after reading it something isn't clear, I will try to elaborate, but I think it's pretty clear, and it's best if it comes direclty from the source.

MSB: I read, and was already familiar with the contents of the link when I made my comment.

TB: Imagine all those times the spirit has communicated with you through your thoughts and feelings, or when peace has come...rather the spirit doing that for you, the Savior himself shows up to tutor you, to instruct you, you don't have to learn how the spirit speaks to you anymore becuase you can see and convers with the Lord face to face. And this isn't an "end of life" thing...it happens in real time as needed over the years... and I don't know of ANY murderes who then met the Lord and were redeemed...and again, the 2nd comforter is not about "meeting the Lord and being redeemed" it's about the fact that you are now so holy, so near perfection that the Lord himself walks with you INSTEAD of the spirit.

MSB: Alma the Younger, King Lamoni, his wife, his house. King Lamoni's father, the hundreds of Lamanites who were about to kill Nephi and Lehi are just a few examples of meeting the Lord and receiving redemption. In my view, we are so far from perfection. So far from being like Christ. It is something we will never achieve in this life, it is what the Lord came to fix. It is not something we earn, it is given by grace to those with broken hearts and contrite spirits. Those who enter the Lord's presence are so aware of their unworthiness (Ether 3, Exodus 20) that they tremble and are afraid. It is this brokenness that qualifies an individual, a realization of their nothingness, and not of their holiness. Any holiness possessed by an individual is a byproduct given to them by grace. Our nakedness is clothed by the Savior (not mere ceremonial clothing) so that we can have any confidence whatsoever in the presence of God.

TB: Most of the examples you gave were them seeing angels, not the savior. the people in 3rd Nephi All saw the savior but as a testament to him - not them receiving him as the second comforter.

I'm not going to argue doctrine with you but make no mistake our works have a place if they did not it would not be necessary to have 3 degrees of glory. If it were not we wouldn't have commandments. Grace makes up the gap after all WE CAN DO in WORKING OUT our own salvation.

The broken heart and the contrite spirit is when recognize that despite our best efforts we cannot save ourselves and need the Lord, but that doesn't absolve us from the "work" of getting to that point - the commandment keeping and submitting our will to God is the vehicle by which that submission comes.

Direct question, are you LDS? Your theology sounds very evangelical

MSB: I disagree. It is the ministry of angels to call man to, and declare the conditions of repentance. Repentance is turning to face the Lord until you come into his presence. As shown in the Book of Mormon, true repentance doesn't need to take a long time, it all depends on the condition of your heart. Lamoni declared "I have seen my Redeemer." and to put a finer point on it he said "as sure as thou livest". Or "just as sure as you stand before me, I have seen my Redeemer." The queen declared "O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell!", and as the others arose "and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing." He, the queen, and his people were likewise prostrate upon the earth. If they were beholding only angels, angels would have commanded them not to worship them, and angels don't forgive sin.

Lamoni's father said "O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee", and that he was struck (in the same manner of Lamoni and his house) is the evidence that God honored his request.

When Alma rose from his vision, he declared: "I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord." He said all must become his sons and daughters (receiving a new name) and that "the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God." He and the sons of Mosiah then brought many to the "knowledge of their Redeemer", which they could not have done if they had not known him themselves. And "knowing God" is eternal life.

If you look at the events surrounding the preaching of Nephi and Lehi there are many parallels between what happened then and when Christ appeared to the Nephites. A group of "about 300" were overshadowed with a cloud of darkness, could not move or flee and were afraid. A voice declared repentance three times. The voice pierced them to their center. An named dissenter helped them to understand that they needed to cry to the voice. The voice spoke marvelous things that man cannot utter. Nephi and Lehi's face "did shine exceedingly, even as the faces of angels" and were speaking to someone in heaven. When they cried to the voice, the result was that the Father spoke to them saying "Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world." "And now, when they heard this they cast up their eyes as if to behold from whence the voice came; and behold, they saw the heavens open; and angels came down out of heaven and ministered unto them." They looked toward the sound of the voice and the heavens opened to them. The fact that angels ministered to them, does not mean that they didn't see the source of the voice they were looking for which "opened to them", and what makes it heaven is the being that dwells there.

Even if you disagree, that because every instance didn't explicitly say that they met the Lord (which I think is a mistake), the stance that heaven didn't honor them with more light and truth based on the condition of their heart, and not their exact, lifelong obedience is mistaken. It was "knowing the Lord" and what he was like that made the people of Jershon determined to keep the commandments. The Lord offered Israel to come up to the mount. They refused. What resulted was a severe law of 600 some rules that they had to keep perfectly, otherwise they would be "guilty of all". It was, in my mind, a way to teach these Israelites, that they were powerless until they were broken.

The Book of Mormon is a manual with example after example on receiving the Second Comforter. What kind of comfort is it, that the Son gives?

My suggestion is to not find ways to disbelieve what God can and has offered to do for you, but believe he can save, and that only by him ministering unto you, can your heart be changed such that you become a new creature, able to keep the commandments. From what I have seen in the scriptures, having more truth is often a hindrance to receiving the Lord, than it is a help. More truth misunderstood can be the death of faith.

I am LDS. When teachings differ from the BoM, I default to trusting this "most correct" book, as the church has been under condemnation repeatedly for taking it lightly. The Book of Mormon is a very evangelical book. I don't draw a line between myself and evangelicals, but I ask them what it is they believe and search to see if there are any similarities. I'm not sure any of us has a complete understanding of the nature and balance of grace and works. It wasn't the grace-works argument or any other technicality for which Jesus condemned 1820 Christianity, it was that their "hearts were far from him". They didn't know the Lord or what he was like so the result was a bunch Pharisaical blind guides "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

AJ: Wonderful, beautiful discussion. I love the paradoxical nature of grace and works. I love it because it causes me to seek a real continuous relationship with my Savior. I feel so worthless and loved by Him anyway. I love that when I mourn, He also mourns because He walks with me. I am a sinner and the least of all saints that can be called Saint. I think paradox can and often does stop our progression to the real meat of the gospel. That meat is our personal relationship with our Savior.