Accusation

"With respect to this project now underway, expect opposition. There will also be imitation and pretenders. There will be the deceived and deceivers who will be emboldened. There is always a necessary opposition in all things. It doesn’t happen any other way. But at the end of all this, assuming there is some group, however small (Gideon and his group were reduced from 32,000 to 10,000 to 300) it will be sufficient for the triumph. (Judges 7:2-25) I hope those who are opposed to this will allow those willing to enter into a covenant to go on in peace. We allow all others from any other of the various sects of Mormonism, to depart from us in peace. I hope that those willing to adopt the covenant are likewise given the opportunity to depart in peace." (Things to Keep us Awake at Night, DS, St. George Conference, March 2017. Link)

"There’s still an enormous amount to be accomplished and there's probably going to be departures of many people along the way. That's a good thing, because if they are clamoring and complaining and are like the children of Israel in the wilderness with Moses, it would be better to leave them with the fleshpots of Egypt. We won't have contentious people and also Zion. We really do want people to expose their ambition, their pride, arrogance, vanity, lusts and desires. If it is in their heart we want them to let us see their complaining hearts, and to hear their bitter, acrimonious and false accusations. We welcome that, because those are people that ought not be gathered. They should be free to gather into their own collective and do whatever it is they think will bring them joy. But they are not part of God's people and they cannot be broken by us. Therefore, let God break them. Don't bring them with us. If people decide to depart and have no further going with us, remember that many people departed from Christ after his 'bread of life' talk. So many departed that He turned to the apostles and asked, 'are you leaving too?' Peter said, 'where are we going to go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.' That was not a particularly ringing endorsement, if you think about it. But it was true. There was and still is no other place to go. The Lord alone has the words of eternal life." (Things to Keep us Awake at Night, Q&A, DS, St. George Conference, March 2017. Link)

 

Isaiah 28 Redux

JZ: That post starts with another one of my favorite new Restoration Testimony Meeting phrases: "I was asked..." Maybe God asked me to share this. Or maybe it was some guy on Facebook. Wouldn't you like to know.

TM: Ha, true. Too sacred to share the details of by whom or how I was asked. Or 'I received'.

JZ: Yes "I Received" is good too. By the voice of angels, or by this text message lol. Hey cool the restoration youth conference provides dessert! This is nothing like LDS culture at all!

TM: Crazy how easy it is to return to vomit.

MB: Isaiah 28 did say that it would happen again after a "remnant" came out from the initial vomit.

TM: Yeah, I remember you sharing that MB. An awesome find. Just listened to that chapter again. "7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean." (Vomit in scripture seems to refer to returning to evils previously forsaken)

TM: This next part really struck me... "15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

JZ: Todd I just reread it as you were reading it too, and that "covenant with death" thing stood out to me too

TM: But here is the real way Zion happens (not through that covenant): "16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." (Imo that stone is Christ. Individuals who receive line upon line come into Christ and know him. This is what makes Zion). "18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." This concept is really hammered down in Isaiah 28: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" The phrase trodden down is consistently used to describe the ultimate fate of the Gentiles.

JZ: What do you think "The milk" and "The breasts" symbolizes?

LE: Cool scriptures. But in Isaiah 28 it seems to be using the line upon line idea in a negative way, no? "13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

TM: Yeah, I noticed that too. It seems to be used in a positive way at times, and a negative way in vs 13

LE: I think it's a reference to this JZ: "12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe." Heb 5. Maybe God deals with all people the same way. He leads us steadily one direction or the other depending on our desires.

TM: Is it relying on other flesh to teach us (even legitimate teachers) instead of the word of God direct to us?

JZ: I agree LE. There are some other scriptures about milk vs. meat.

MB: This is cray. Nephi said the "law hath become dead unto us" so it would make a lot of sense as a covenant with death. Fear, haste, accusation are all a part of this.

TM: Yes. And any 'covenant' that's not actually made with God would be a covenant with hell. I haven't seen anything that gives me any confidence that this covenant they seek originated from God. Absolutely

 

The Doctrine of Christ

Nephi

"For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel." (2 Nephi 32:2)

Noah

"And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying: Hearken, and give heed unto my words; Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not." (Moses 8)

Christ

"Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine. And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." (3 Nephi 11)

Christ

"Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church." (D&C 10)

 

Temples and Parables

I don't think it's one-or-the-other. Denver himself has said the temple is for a people who will not rise up, in other words, a condemnation; in other words, a mercy. Kind of like when Christ started using parables.

 

Adding to the Doctrine of Christ

What is the point of a limited doctrine with severe stipulations that it not be modified, if it is an open-ended clause? It would seem the temptation to steady the ark is too difficult to resist for some.

This expansion of the Doctrine of Christ is similar to how people have taken the limited and enumerated powers of the Constitution, and then interpreted the General Welfare and Interstate Commerce clause and created unlimited powers not granted.

 

A Second Group Reels with Wine and Strong Drink

"Ah, the proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim, and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of those bloated with rich food, of those overcome with wine! See, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong; like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest, like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters; with his hand he will hurl them down to the earth. Trampled under foot will be the proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim. And the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of those bloated with rich food, will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer; whoever sees it, eats it up as soon as it comes to hand. In that day the Lord of hosts will be a garland of glory, and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people; and a spirit of justice to the one who sits in judgment, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate. These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are confused with wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment. All tables are covered with filthy vomit; no place is clean." (Isaiah 28)

 

How to Inherit Eternal Life

"And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." (Luke 18)

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25)

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise." (Luke 10)

"Christ’s greatest commandments were simple, and given to every one of us: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” (Matt. 22:37.) “ Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' (Matt. 22:39) 'Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.' (Matt. 7:12.) If we do these things there is no time to proclaim our greatness, to assert the right to be a leader, or to command others. Servants do not strut, but behave meekly. They only take such acts as the True Master commands." (DS, DoC Conf, Boise 2016)

No mention of covenants.

 

Fear, the Language of the Natural Man

The use of fear statements to motivate others is just a lower level way of communicating to natural men who really don't remember what it was like to be truly loved and accepted by their maker, and the same people who use that method are just as screwed as those who fall for the fear.

 

DP's Submission to the Scripture Project Team

I just sent the following email to the Scripture Team:

This is my formal vote to permanently remove any existing governing principles from the scriptures and to leave any future governing principles out of the scriptures. Since this proposal is not an attempt to modify the governing principles, but is an attempt to question the need for them at all, I hope that this will go on the submissions list for everyone to see. If it doesn't go on the submissions list, there will be virtually no way for the entire body of believers to formally manifest their desires concerning the very existence of the governing principles. My reasoning for removing the governing principles is as follows:

This is a quote from the Preserving the Restoration talk in the Forty Years in Mormonism lecture series, with some additions in brackets:

"The church [or any church] has been [and will be] damaged by correlation. President McKay predicted it would lead to apostasy. If I [or anybody else] were to 'lead' and standardize things it would be a return to correlation. Why return to what has damaged Mormonism? It is the system that has done the damage. You cannot improve that flaw by choosing to make me [or anybody else, including a group of fellowship delegates] your new correlator. I will not do it [and nobody else should do it either]. It will darken your minds and would corrupt me [or anybody else]. I am no better than you, and I believe some of you to be better than I. We need hundreds of independently functioning believers adapting the Gospel to their needs. Doctrine does not change, and the scriptures are constant. Your needs will vary. Therefore you apply what is changeless to your peculiar circumstances. You can do it better than any distant authority [including a group of fellowship delegates] could possibly do it for you."

The desire to "assist new converts to get the basics right" (see the Scripture Project Updates, April 30, 2017) indicates a paternalistic stance and assumes that we are currently in a position of great knowledge that would enable us to actually assist them. I believe that assumes too much and is prideful. In fact, our "basis in the [corrupt] LDS tradition" (ibid.) may specifically disqualify us from being in a position to assist new converts. We should run far away from anything that has a proven track record of sabotaging the restoration. The scriptures themselves are the only governing principles anyone needs.

 

The Waters of Baptism and Birth into a Family

The Lord's rebuke is not why I'm including this, but the Lord equating the waters of baptism with the waters of Judah.

"Hearken and hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, yet they swear not in truth nor in righteousness." (1 Nephi 20:1)

Waters of baptism is a symbol of the waters of the womb and being born into God's family. The baptism of fire is God's approval and final say, or ratification over what has happened.