St Rtz' Original Post: FV and I were wondering why he was kicked out of the group, as he has never received any warnings.

Ch Kd: FV was kicked??

St Rtz: yes I just noticed by reading his post and his name was gray, and asked him about it.

Ch Kd: Wow.

PJB: Wasn't me

Mk Jnsn: He is welcome to contact me. Other members were reporting his posts. Read the new Covenant post by DS, it has some relevant stuff. Steven, I think u know how to communicate with me privately...

Mk Fst: This is what the Bishop did to me when I was posting on the Ward FB group trying to reason and persuade about how the Brethren had added to the Doctrine of Christ. "Members were reporting my posts...". Wow.

Shn Bdw: All I see is 2 sides to a problem and neither side even comes close to understanding what was written in that covenant answer. It's no wonder that the Lord has to be long suffering with us and why he has to wait for the right people time, after time, after time.

Mk Jnsn: Shn Bdw The Covenant Status is coming next month. It is time to keep things cleaner here, before all the like minded people who liked the original intent of this group, leave.

Jonathan Smith: Hey, hey, another one bites the dust.

St Rtz:  Mk Jnsn, was there something wrong with his posts or did people just not like them?

JJ D: I enjoyed FV's posts and do not recall him being mean spirited.

Mk Jnsn: He posted a bad one yesterday again. I also agreed his stuff is competing and contentious. Read the words of the Covenant. I and others will chat with him and reconsider. But know is an important time in history for things to be cleaned up.

Mt Crkt: The Lord taught that contention is an inward observance and not an outward observance of others. If one perceives contention in others perhaps they should look no further than themselves for therein lies the spirit of contention, they are aroused to an...See More

St Rtz: Is having a different opinion contentions?

MSB: Which words of the covenant are you applying here Mk Jnsn?

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A sub-thread

Mk Jnsn: He is welcome to contact me. Other members were reporting his posts. Read the new Covenant post by DS, it has some relevant stuff. Steven, I think u know how to communicate with me privately…

Matthew David Malfaro: "Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion rather than sharply disputing and wrongly condemning each other, causing anger. Take care how you invoke my name. Mankind has been controlled by the adversary through anger and jealously which has led to bloodshed and the misery of many souls. Even strong disagreements should not provoke anger nor to invoke my name in vain as if I had part in your every dispute. Pray together in humility and together meekly present your dispute to me, and if you are contrite before me I will tell you my part."

MSB: So you read the Answer, and what you got out of it was to cast people out? Seriously?

MSB: "If they refuse to constrain themselves, to use persuasion only, and gentleness and meekness then you know by that sign alone that you are listening to an Aaronic and not a Melchizedek authority (if they have authority at all)."

"There are a lot of people who will never agree with you. Therefore, if you are limited to persuasion alone, you have to afford people the freedom to reject, to be contrary, to raise their hand and make a contrasting point, and not have someone empowered say, 'Your point is not welcome here. You are not doing what you need to do to be heard!'"

St Rtz: I don't believe the answer Denver supposed received.

MSB: St Rtz I can understand that, but if you do believe it, this action is the opposite of what the answer says. It's the opposite of what Christ told the Nephites, it's the opposite of what Denver said in the ten talks.

St Rtz: I agree with your assessment if you believe it and the action the admins took.

Rbt Fst: What took so long?

Shn Bdw: I don't know if I did it right but I've tried to PM you  Mk Jnsn. I'd really like to understand the question I posed.

Mk Jnsn: MSB Read the participation terms of the group description.

Mk Jnsn: People are complaining about all the contention lately and that things need to be seriously cleaned up, many are leaving because of it. Then others complain when a little moderation or removal occurs. I am trying to balance it all out and help the situation. People are welcome to ask to rejoin. Which Frederick has done. Those who brought up complaints against him are already in touch with him. It's a private matter, and it will be handled privately.

MSB:  Mk Jnsn Of course you can run the group however you want. I'm not disputing that.

Mk Jnsn: And yes, if you don't abide by the terms of participation, especially over a long period of time, removal can occur. It has been there the whole time. This is not a local fellowship. This is an online discussion group. It doesn't mean any one is cast out from among the righteous or out of any local fellowship, and anyone can ask to rejoin. This is a large group of fellowships and interested people converging online. People are welcome to be a part of those on their own. Each group has it's own participation rules.

Mk Jnsn: MSB If u want to dispute the clearly set out terms of participation, feel free.

Mk Jnsn: St Rtz Steven, this is a safe place of LIKE minded friends to hang out. People here support the work of the Lord currently underway, including the use of Denver Snuffer as a Servant of His. Why are you here? To cause contention and division? Like Frederick recently did? You are welcome to remove yourself and find another Denver bashing group to join.

MSB: I said that I'm *not* disputing the terms. What I am saying, however is that many people were under the impression that this *was* a fellowship, and being dropped from this group, or any group where open participation was or used to be the norm are being cast out. Many people do not have local fellowships and are obligated to seek them out remotely.

MSB: If this is not a fellowship, than what is it? A carefully crafted marketing message to a closed group?

Mk Jnsn: MSB Well, this has never been considered a local fellowship. Yes, I already considered that some people don't have local access to one. There are online groups people can be a part of on Sunday's. I wanted this to be a safe pace for us to hang out after the end of the 10th lecture in 2014. A place for people to see the positive things going on among us, so they can consider and take interest. Those intents are destroyed when people come in here and cause a lot of ruckus. So to protect the true intent, and for a greater cause, we do need to keep things cleaner here.

Mk Jnsn: And there are times when people can be suspended from using priesthood in fellowships. A suspension, or temporary removal, is not some final condemnatory deal. I would rather hope to see people be warned and removed, then agree to be more considerate and helpful with this group's intended roles... so they can return more peaceful and helpful than ever.

MSB: I don't know how that relates to casting someone out, those are two different things.

MSB: I know I and many others were under the impression that this was an online fellowship. I'm not sure what Sunday has to do with anything.

MSB: You're crafting a positive message by culling, for who? You want to present a picture of unity and uniformity that isn't accurate? You want to omit those who don't agree so you no one has to deal with their arguments?

MSB: Besides, what you just described, as the purpose of this group, sounds an awful lot like a fellowship.

Brt Btl: The fact that it is a Closed Facebook group, immediately conveys the idea that this group IS NOT for everyone.

MSB: Again, I'm not disputing the rights or mechanics of Facebook.

Brt Btl: There is no tithing done here. No sacrament. No service. And most importantly, no meeting in person, which if were done, would likely immediately relieve the amount of contention here as sincere emotion would be able to be conveyed and people would be less rude looking another person in the eye.

MSB: Mike just invoked the covenant as the reason for booting people. While I don't understand that reasoning, as it sounds opposite of the covenant, that sounds like a fellowship, and running the group as a fellowship. Also there have been people here that have requested and given tithing. Have you not seen those?

Shn Jsn: This group IS a fellowship in the dictionary sense of the word - but I suppose not in the typical LDS remnant thinking sense. The mechanics of a fellowship are another matter entirely, and must be clearly explained where people will see them. Before the past week or two this group has seemed to be a fellowship led by whatever people were interested in (or "fighting" about). That doesn't appear to be the original intent of the group, nor the intended outcome, but the group members don't necessarily know that yet (now that the direction of the group is intended to be kept inline with the original purpose), so care must be taken so people don't feel rejected/cast out/ostracized when admin action is taken. Especially since this is a religious type group, and that does give certain impressions - because history.

Meeting in person might help give the appearance of less contention - but the problem actually just manifests differently. The results of which I believe are far more damaging/damning in many cases. The underlying problem must be addressed (people's hearts/understanding) no matter what form fellowship takes place, or else the problems will persist among a group. Facebook does have its issues with communication; but at the end of the day you don't have to live with anyone on it, which makes many aspects of fellowship easier.

St Rtz: I'm confused Mike at times you say you don't have to believe in Denver to be here and other times you say we do, so which is it?

Mk Jnsn: I told you both what the original intent and purpose of his group is. Are you guys going to be in line with this group's purpose or not. If anyone does not agree with the work the Lord is doing through Snuffer, why are you here what is your purpose

Mk Jnsn: This group is for like-minded friends to have a safe place to discuss important gospel topics and to be a good light to others who come here to help them consider the important work the Lord is doing right now

Mk Jnsn: If people are clearly contradicting and distracting away from this group's purpose why should we allow people like that to continue here

Mk Jnsn: I politely ask you to voluntarily remove yourself if you're not in line with this group's purpose and intent

MSB: Mike, you and other eminent people here have made no effort to understand me and others. Your repeated statements continue to show that you know nothing about me and others. The stated purpose of this group has changed multiple times until now it is very narrow and exclusive. I am not a threat to anyone unless you are really unstable in your beliefs. I don't plan to leave, but if you want to kick me out because I don't have exactly the same view as you do, please feel free and do it yourself, but I don't, as of right now, intend to leave.

Mk Jnsn: Untrue. You know nothing of my beliefs and those who do know me definitely know I'm not unstable in anything . I have considered the things you've said here. Answer my question

Mk Jnsn: And the group's purpose and intent has been the same for 3 straight years

MSB: I believe that the Lord is doing a work through Snuffer, absolutely. Is that what you're looking for?

Mk Jnsn: Tell me what it is

MSB: To bring again Zion.

Mk Jnsn: What is your opinion of the Covenant prayer and the Covenant paper Denver recently posted

MSB: What is your opinion of 3 Nephi 18?

MSB: Answer my question from earlier. Which words of the covenant are you using to cast people out of your group?

Mk Jnsn: I'm not here for circular arguments. If people are not in line with the group's description and this being a closed like-minded group, and are just going to contend and distact, and not here to learn and reason, there really is little reason for them to be here.

Shn Bdw: I'm learning a lot from this thread.

Mk Jnsn: Are you like Steven who thinks Denver is not a real servant and the Covenant is not God's doing?

MSB: I answered your question. Please answer mine. After that, I'll answer yours.

Mk Jnsn: I am all for the group's purpose obviously. Are you

Mk Jnsn: We are here to support God's work and help others learn about it. That is a much higher purpose than allowing those who contend against that work and cause distraction preventing people from properly learning about it all

Shn Bdw: I don't know what St Rtz thinks. I believe Denver is a real servant and that the Covenant is God's doing. However, this behavior is right in line with what was stated in his answered prayer.

Mk Jnsn: That is just your misinterpretation

Shn Bdw: Well I can agree that one of us is misinterpreting.

Mk Jnsn: It's just as simple suspension from a Facebook group.

MSB: It's casting out. It's wounding the souls of those you cast out. If you get a group of people together IRL and one or two people say "you must leave, you're no longer welcome here until you think like us," is spiritual abuse of the highest order. Just because this is FB doesn't change that fact. You commit the exact same abuse that the LDS church has inflicted upon you.


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